Rit flaggers vs monk flaggers

  1. 9 months ago

    Rit flaggers vs monk flaggers - which is better, why and when?

    My opinion:
    Monk flagger is better almost all the time in an even-skilled matchup.

    Rit flagger-

    pros:

    • Very good for running flags on if you can put up spirits or if the other team is under pressure
    • Huge party healing if not being shut down
    • Glimmer/snare
    • Weapons

    cons:

    • Gets shut down very easily by mesmers and rangers if the other team can afford to play offensive
    • Very ineffective if you have flag disadvantage while the other team is not under big pressure
    • Much harder/worse vs splits most of the time

    Monk flagger-

    pros:

    • A lot harder to shut down than rit
    • Much easier to play than rit
    • Shield guardian
    • Much more effective as a static character at main team than rit in most matchups
    • Much stronger/easier vs splits most of the time and gives some better options of how to play vs split builds

    cons:

    • Sucks at running flags in 8v8/no compass wide party healing
    • No weapons / relies on enchants
    • No damage/snares most of the time making some split/push defenses worse

    Main reason for playing a rit flagger is to run flags in it and still have support for your team while you do it with spirits and pot, which monk can't really do. Also glimmer can be pretty good if your team can play very aggressive and you don't have to play defensive much as a rit. Problem is it's pretty easy to take advantage of a team that runs on rit flagger on most maps, especially if you know they're going to ahead of time.
    Rit flaggers really give a huge advantage when you get to choose when you can run flags. Teams often play fully aggressive in 8v8 and then when the other team starts to take a lot of pressure, rit will burn out his energy / put up spirits and run, making the team running on rit snowball hard against the other team since the moment the other team starts playing aggressive they'll probably wipe considering they're already under significant pressure and your own team is buffered by the spirts.

    That can be countered though if you just make sure you maintain a flag advantage by starting the game with a double run, bringing the flag in on a caster so you an choose to cap second if the other team double runs, and keeping ahead from there. That forces the team with rit flagger to run flags at non optimal times (i.e. run flags before they put up significant pressure on you), and allows you to burn your flag advantage by keeping 8 main if they run on rit and kill them, or if they run on damage you can run on damage too, having an advantage in the 7v7 since their rit will be less effective over time than your monk flagger. I think in most mirror matchups monk flagger gives a huge advantage if the flaggers aren't running.

    tl;dr
    Team with monk flagger has a huge advantage vs team with a rit flagger if they make sure they start with big flag advantage and keep that advantage till the other team runs on rit

    what are your guys opinions?

  2. I am a noob :P so this is a question, rather than an opinion.

    Why do you say that rt is

    @Nick - Very ineffective if you have flag disadvantage while the other team is not under big pressure

    ?

    From the very few GvG matches that I played, it sort of seemed like if you have flag disadvantage AND the opponent team is not under big pressure, they can easily afford to play completely offensively, most likely forcing your team to run on damage (need full backline at main). In that sense I was actually thinking that rt could be better than mo because, in case your team wants to run a second flag on the same character and cap the first one on flagger to make up for the flag disadvantage, rt could pick up the flag from the damage character more easily, since they generally play much more in the back than a monk flagger (and they can snare/glimmer an enemies character collapsing on runner). What am I missing?

    Also, I hope you could understand what I mean xD I'm still not very practical with "technical" terminology.

  3. Godly

    25 Dec 2016 Administrator

    @Nick

    • Gets shut down very easily by mesmers and rangers if the other team can afford to play offensive
    • Much harder/worse vs splits most of the time

    Those 2 alone were the biggest reason why Rit flaggers drop out of the meta, if you ask me. I also agree with whole OP 100%. There's specific team builds, tactics, how your team plays in general and maps, all of those affect should you play Monk flagger or Rit flagger. The OP already gives good examples what are advantages and disadvantages.

  4. Ali

    25 Dec 2016 Member
    Edited 9 months ago by Ali

    rits are just too easy to shut down imo, it's so much easier/safer to run a third monk

  5. Godly

    25 Dec 2016 Administrator

    @SISTRENS ...if you have flag disadvantage AND the opponent team is not under big pressure, they can easily afford to play completely offensively, most likely forcing your team to run on damage (need full backline at main). In that sense I was actually thinking that rt could be better than mo because, in case your team wants to run a second flag on the same character and cap the first one on flagger to make up for the flag disadvantage, rt could pick up the flag from the damage character more easily, since they generally play much more in the back than a monk flagger (and they can snare/glimmer an enemies character collapsing on runner). What am I missing?

    That depends on opponent team if it a good idea to hand and hold the flag on flagger. In general by holding flag and sending someone to your base to pick next one is good idea, if you can do it. Example if they're running heavy snare build and they have all their 5 dmg at stand it can be pretty dangerous to run flag through to stand with Rit flagger. You won't get fast casts while holding the flag and you don't have the +armor from your defence set, which makes you very squishy if you can't get weapon up. Also faking with monk flagger is easier because the lower cost of spells(compared to weapons). You can't swap to high energy set either when holding the flag, which means when you're out of energy you're really out of energy. In my opinion safer way would be to hand the flag to another midline dmg dealer(caster), while waiting your other dmg to get back. Either way you're playing 1 person disadvantage this whole time.

  6. Edited 9 months ago by Nick

    @SISTRENS I am a noob :P so this is a question, rather than an opinion.

    Why do you say that rt is

    ?

    From the very few GvG matches that I played, it sort of seemed like if you have flag disadvantage AND the opponent team is not under big pressure, they can easily afford to play completely offensively, most likely forcing your team to run on damage (need full backline at main). In that sense I was actually thinking that rt could be better than mo because, in case your team wants to run a second flag on the same character and cap the first one on flagger to make up for the flag disadvantage, rt could pick up the flag from the damage character more easily, since they generally play much more in the back than a monk flagger (and they can snare/glimmer an enemies character collapsing on runner). What am I missing?

    Also, I hope you could understand what I mean xD I'm still not very practical with "technical" terminology.

    Whether you get the flag in on ritualist or not, you're still stuck with a ritualist main team vs a monk flagger (and 4 dmg vs 4 dmg presumably) which means the other team can most likely play on your rit without being punished, giving them a huge advantage compared to the advantage of you playing on their monk flagger.

    So, you get stuck in a 7v7 with a build disadvantage. If you choose to run full or second half on rit (while the other team is playing offensively on your rit -> you probably wont get spirits / boost your teams bars effectively before you leave) while the other team has flag advantage, that probably gives the monk flagger team the option to do what I was saying before for rit teams where you wait until you have huge pressure then run on your flagger, since in my experience teams who 8v8 with rit flaggers in necro bala mirror usually wipe very, very fast against strong offensive teams, now matter how good their backline is. They could also just play safe and mirror what you're doing which still gives them an advantage in the 7v7 and keeps their flag advantage. There's a lot of options open to the team with monk flagger if they have flag advantage and very few options open to the rit flagger team.

    As godly said there's some risks risks associated with running flag on rit through a team with snares/rupts in addition to all of what I said above, especially if the other team is playing very offensively and have gained a lot of ground. The longer the path for your rit to run the flag in the more chance he gets weapons rupted and get snared hard, especially since you have a damage waiting back for next flag which means the other team can play even MORE aggressive, snaring more, bodyblocking with monks and getting an even bigger flag advantage. It's an enormous problem when you aren't putting up pressure against a super aggressive necro balance team. A lot of that is negated on a map like warriors while the footmen are still up (since the danger zone for the rit running the flag in will be pretty small) but as soon as you lose those footmen you've very vulnerable again.

    I'd say if you can keep footmen up, get spirits up when you run behind the footmen/obstacles and run the second half of the way on rit on warriors isle then I think you're right and the rit flagger can give an advantage there, but it can be pretty hard to stop good teams rolling over you if you do that imo.

  7. Reed

    25 Dec 2016 Member

    @Nick in my experience teams who 8v8 with rit flaggers in necro bala mirror usually wipe very, very fast against strong offensive teams, now matter how good their backline is.

    Sorry you mean like how OvO (with monk runner) wiped in 3minutes of 8v8 vs SqrL in mAT?

  8. Edited 9 months ago by SISTRENS

    @Godly ~

    @Nick ~

    Ok, I (sorta xD) get it thx

    @Reed Sorry you mean like how OvO (with monk runner) wiped in 3minutes of 8v8 vs SqrL in mAT?

    It wasn't mirror though

  9. @Reed Sorry you mean like how OvO (with monk runner) wiped in 3minutes of 8v8 vs SqrL in mAT?

    Solo front 8v8 builds, especially on warriors, are a whole different story
    Plus we are/were not a good team In the first place

  10. Godly

    25 Dec 2016 Administrator

    OvO is bad example, bunch of pussies.

  11. Edited 9 months ago by another oldy

    Well even tho the Top-Post looks like a complete troll I guess I'll jump in and leave a word.

    For splitting:
    Both Monk and Ritualist can properly defend most split compositions, but the monk is superior when it comes down to defending eles simply because his skills usually cost less and heal more.
    That means you have alot more room for failure (aka being shit) on monk than on Ritualist while defending.
    Another difference between them is that the Ritualist has utility that allows certain tactics/plays (for example glimmering or a SNARE to collapse).

    Conclusion for splitting:
    If you KNOW they will split 2 eles and you don't give a fuck about any utility than the monk runner definitly exceeds. However if they don't play dual ele split and your teambuild would work well with some utility on the runner than Ritualist should be your choice.

    For 8v8:
    Both runners have their advantages such as Monks being harder to shut down and having stronger direct heal, but having the problem of overlaping skills and only outhealing but not stoping the incoming damage.
    Therefore the Ritualist is vulnerable when it comes to shut down and requires alot more skill (aka NOT BIENG SHIT) and alot more team coordination to stop overextending rangers/mesmers who try to get on him.
    However if you and your team do execute this well the Ritualist will reward your team way more than the Monk.

    The reason for this is simply because spirits and weapons do reduce or even stop incoming damage/pressure
    (you can kinda compare it to having a prot+fuse as bl instead of having 2 healers). 2 more great aspects about Ritualists are the fact that they have ENERGY MANAGEMENT what means they will be alot strong than Monk runners over the long run and the second aspect is that Ritualists can support your Mainteam while running flags which allows a more offensive playstyle (if your team knows how and when to lineback).

    Conlusion for 8v8:
    If you don't wipe the enemy in around 4-5 minutes (which is usually hard because noone knows how to properly play defensive and keeps running on damage) a well played Ritualist will mostly exceed compared to a Monk runner.
    However, if you're shit or your team coordination is shit a Monk runner would probably be better, because it requires less skill from you and your team (it allows more misplays/bad positioning etc.).

    BTW merry fucking christmas baddies.

  12. holye

    25 Dec 2016 Moderator
    Edited 9 months ago by holye

    Nick Rit flagger-

    pros:

    Huge party healing if not being shut down

    I do think this is an important point to discuss.

    Monk flaggers do outheal Rits in pure numbers and the build should be identified as the superior party healing setup within its limitations (cast range).

    Assumptions:

    1. Monk Flagger attributes are: 13 Healing, 11 Protection, 11 Divine Favor
    2. Ritualist Flagger Restoration attribute is 14
    3. Party Heal : Energy/Recharge formula = Party Heal / (Energy * Recharge) | The higher the number, the better the skill in terms of Party Healing to Energy/Recharge efficiency.

    Ritualist Party Heal Math

    Protective was Kaolai - 10e, 25 sec recharge, 80 party heal
    80 / (10 * 25) = .32
    Life - 10e, 20 sec recharge, 140 party heal
    140 / (10 * 20) = .7

    .32 + .7 = 1.02

    Within a 20 second period, you can expect to party heal 220 health. You can note here that you do not receive any additional benefit to the skills cast unless you are running Spirit Channeling.

    Monk Party Heal Math

    Heal Burst - 5e, 4 sec recharge, 35 party heal
    35 / (5 * 4) = 1.75
    Shield Guardian - 5e, 20 sec recharge, Each block instance prevents blocked damage and party heals for 32
    ( [32 + average block damage] * # of instances triggered ) / (5 * 20) = ( [32 + average block damage] * # of instances triggered ) / 100

    Just for the sake of an example, I will assume average block damage is 10 and # of instances triggered is 2.
    ( [32 + 10] * 2 ) / 100 = .84

    Within a 20 second period, we can expect the Monk Flagger to cast Heal Burst 4 times and one Shield Guardian. Using the above assumption for Shield Guardian average block damage/# of instances triggered, this equals to (35 * 4) + (42 * 2) = 140 + 84 = 224.

    You can note here that this serves as almost a baseline for this bars party heals as the party healing can scale up based on half recharges on both skills and SG triggering more times and blocking more damage. Additionally, every HB and SG cast benefits from DF bonus on the target cast upon, and HB heals for 140 health on the target cast upon.

    Edit I want to clarify the mechanic's mentioned in the last line for clarity.

    Heal Burst's party heal effect is as follows: "All party members in earshot of your target gain Health equal to the Divine Favor bonus from this spell." The target itself is excluded from this effect; the target will receive an equivalent heal due to Divine Favor as mentioned above the edit.

    The Shield Guardian DF bonus mentioned above the edit is only applied to the character casting SG (i.e. the Monk Flagger) and is not applied to everyone who receives the block enchant.

    Credit goes to Jonas for explaining the math to me in the past.

  13. @holye I do think this is an important point to discuss.

    Monk flaggers do outheal Rits in pure numbers and the build should be identified as the superior party healing setup within its limitations (cast range).

    Assumptions:

    1. Monk Flagger attributes are: 13 Healing, 11 Protection, 11 Divine Favor
    2. Ritualist Flagger Restoration attribute is 14
    3. Party Heal : Energy/Recharge formula = Party Heal / (Energy * Recharge) | The higher the number, the better the skill in terms of Party Healing to Energy/Recharge efficiency.

    Ritualist Party Heal Math

    Protective was Kaolai - 10e, 25 sec recharge, 80 party heal
    80 / (10 * 25) = .32
    Life - 10e, 20 sec recharge, 140 party heal
    140 / (10 * 20) = .7

    .32 + .7 = 1.02

    Within a 20 second period, you can expect to party heal 220 health. You can note here that you do not receive any additional benefit to the skills cast unless you are running Spirit Channeling.

    Monk Party Heal Math

    Heal Burst - 5e, 4 sec recharge, 35 party heal
    35 / (5 * 4) = 1.75
    Shield Guardian - 5e, 20 sec recharge, Each block instance prevents blocked damage and party heals for 32
    ( [32 + average block damage] * # of instances triggered ) / (5 * 20) = ( [32 + average block damage] * # of instances triggered ) / 100

    Just for the sake of an example, I will assume average block damage is 10 and # of instances triggered is 2.
    ( [32 + 10] * 2 ) / 100 = .84

    Within a 20 second period, we can expect the Monk Flagger to cast Heal Burst 4 times and one Shield Guardian. Using the above assumption for Shield Guardian average block damage/# of instances triggered, this equals to (35 * 4) + (42 * 2) = 140 + 84 = 224.

    You can note here that this serves as almost a baseline for this bars party heals as the party healing can scale up based on half recharges on both skills and SG triggering more times and blocking more damage. Additionally, every HB and SG cast benefits from DF bonus on the target cast upon, and HB heals for 140 health on the target cast upon.

    Credit goes to Jonas for explaining the math to me in the past.

    Very good points, only thing I'd add is you have to put yourself a little out of position to use shield guardian to its full effect as a flagger, and some good mesmer's/rangers are extremely good at taking out shield guardians, whereas it's not true in the same way for a rit flagger since you don't need to be in range of anyone to use your party heals. Shield guardian still strong as fuck tho.
    When I put that point in I was visualizing a double spirit Rt/A who just puts out insane amounts of party heal when not being shut down. Don't know how much of a difference that makes in the math but I feel its immense from experience.

    @another oldy Well even tho the Top-Post looks like a complete troll I guess I'll jump in and leave a word.

    For splitting:
    Both Monk and Ritualist can properly defend most split compositions, but the monk is superior when it comes down to defending eles simply because his skills usually cost less and heal more.
    That means you have alot more room for failure (aka being shit) on monk than on Ritualist while defending.
    Another difference between them is that the Ritualist has utility that allows certain tactics/plays (for example glimmering or a SNARE to collapse).

    Conclusion for splitting:
    If you KNOW they will split 2 eles and you don't give a fuck about any utility than the monk runner definitly exceeds. However if they don't play dual ele split and your teambuild would work well with some utility on the runner than Ritualist should be your choice.

    For 8v8:
    Both runners have their advantages such as Monks being harder to shut down and having stronger direct heal, but having the problem of overlaping skills and only outhealing but not stoping the incoming damage.
    Therefore the Ritualist is vulnerable when it comes to shut down and requires alot more skill (aka NOT BIENG SHIT) and alot more team coordination to stop overextending rangers/mesmers who try to get on him.
    However if you and your team do execute this well the Ritualist will reward your team way more than the Monk.

    The reason for this is simply because spirits and weapons do reduce or even stop incoming damage/pressure
    (you can kinda compare it to having a prot+fuse as bl instead of having 2 healers). 2 more great aspects about Ritualists are the fact that they have ENERGY MANAGEMENT what means they will be alot strong than Monk runners over the long run and the second aspect is that Ritualists can support your Mainteam while running flags which allows a more offensive playstyle (if your team knows how and when to lineback).

    Conlusion for 8v8:
    If you don't wipe the enemy in around 4-5 minutes (which is usually hard because noone knows how to properly play defensive and keeps running on damage) a well played Ritualist will mostly exceed compared to a Monk runner.
    However, if you're shit or your team coordination is shit a Monk runner would probably be better, because it requires less skill from you and your team (it allows more misplays/bad positioning etc.).

    BTW merry fucking christmas baddies.

    Thanks for your opinion, nice to hear some different viewpoints from the ones in my echochambers. You disagree with the OP, can you point out some of the specific lines you disagree with most?

  14. Godly

    25 Dec 2016 Administrator

    @holye

    Like you said yourself that's calculating pure numbers, which isn't how things work in reality. There's so many other factors that affect whole equation, which can't be calculated. Like @Nick said range is one thing, not only in general but some maps do help here. Also you can use pot and not dropping it instantly and perhaps double pot if situation requires it. Also if monk flagger needs to spam HB it's up for easy rupt. Also another thing about sg, it's pretty good against poison spread alone if you run multiple copies. Just pointing out some things, and there's a lot more.

  15. rit flaggers suck , the reason why ppl stoppet playing its cus of this : easily campedt

    u can only play rit flagger if ur team is ok , see why ovo couldnt when they try to play similar to lag

  16. Reed

    25 Dec 2016 Member
    Edited 9 months ago by Reed

    @holye I do think this is an important point to discuss.

    Monk flaggers do outheal Rits in pure numbers and the build should be identified as the superior party healing setup within its limitations (cast range).

    Assumptions:

    1. Monk Flagger attributes are: 13 Healing, 11 Protection, 11 Divine Favor
    2. Ritualist Flagger Restoration attribute is 14
    3. Party Heal : Energy/Recharge formula = Party Heal / (Energy * Recharge) | The higher the number, the better the skill in terms of Party Healing to Energy/Recharge efficiency.

    Ritualist Party Heal Math

    Protective was Kaolai - 10e, 25 sec recharge, 80 party heal
    80 / (10 * 25) = .32
    Life - 10e, 20 sec recharge, 140 party heal
    140 / (10 * 20) = .7

    .32 + .7 = 1.02

    Within a 20 second period, you can expect to party heal 220 health. You can note here that you do not receive any additional benefit to the skills cast unless you are running Spirit Channeling.

    Monk Party Heal Math

    Heal Burst - 5e, 4 sec recharge, 35 party heal
    35 / (5 * 4) = 1.75
    Shield Guardian - 5e, 20 sec recharge, Each block instance prevents blocked damage and party heals for 32
    ( [32 + average block damage] * # of instances triggered ) / (5 * 20) = ( [32 + average block damage] * # of instances triggered ) / 100

    Just for the sake of an example, I will assume average block damage is 10 and # of instances triggered is 2.
    ( [32 + 10] * 2 ) / 100 = .84

    Within a 20 second period, we can expect the Monk Flagger to cast Heal Burst 4 times and one Shield Guardian. Using the above assumption for Shield Guardian average block damage/# of instances triggered, this equals to (35 * 4) + (42 * 2) = 140 + 84 = 224.

    You can note here that this serves as almost a baseline for this bars party heals as the party healing can scale up based on half recharges on both skills and SG triggering more times and blocking more damage. Additionally, every HB and SG cast benefits from DF bonus on the target cast upon, and HB heals for 140 health on the target cast upon.

    Credit goes to Jonas for explaining the math to me in the past.

    These calculations also only help if your flagger is baby sitting your main team. The ritualist can put down life (or recup) and walk away, drop a pot, grab flag, run back drop another pot etc. The only monk bar that can do this is with LoD / Heal party (buho? :))

    Also HB (given that it party heals for the divine favor value) effectively does not benefit the target as divine favor (i.e the target doesn't get 70 health from being the target). Also SG only provides you with the divine favor heal since afaik its a self casting spell.

  17. @Godly it's pretty good against poison spread alone if you run multiple copies

    A single copy of SG is already very good. If you are able to watch/recognise when a Ranger is using it's IAS you should already be able to prevent lots of his poison spread by a well timed SG and party healing your team, however if you are gonna use SG on recharge you are wasting lots of its abilities. (Not to forget it's a pretty save party wide block when you know frontline has full adrenaline to spike.)

  18. This coming from the guy who once told me Rit flaggers indicate 8v8 builds and Monk flaggers indicate split builds ...

  19. I havent read anything, but

    in a perfect game, where all 16 players are playing their bar perfectly and reasonably, rit is the better choice. Weapon prots are always better than enchantment prots.
    I think the spirits are also way better than healing burst, simply because you can actually run a flag while still having an effect on the team.

    Now this assumes the rit does not get camped by someone, but in a coordinated, skilled team the rit will not get camped.

    This pretty much is enough reasoning for a rit to be ran. Healing burst runners are just replacing the coordination needed to make the rit effective. Which is why people run it, the overall skill level is worse nowadays, obviously.

  20. I'm missing the Like button on Rotten's post.. someone add this pls.

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