Yet another botting drama?

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  2. 7 weeks ago

    @Godly Situation 1, there's close to zero botters and community are strongly against it.
    Situation 2, there's a lot of known botters and probably hidden ones and community just live with it(current situation).

    For you both scenarios are fine and so is for lots of peeps still playing.

    False dichotomy
    The reality is if there's people botting but hide it so well that you can never tell whether they're really bottibg or not just by watching their play then there's not much you can do about it other than scale your response to the evidence (like if if it's very low chance do nothing, medium to high chance then don't let them on that role, very high chance then don't play with them or something like this). You can still have a community that is very against botting (like most of the current one) and still accept that reality above.

    The "close to zero botters" option denies that reality above and the only way to implement it is to do the same thing Stalin did to get rid of spies or that Trump is doing to get rid of terrorists, a sweeping ban that picks up huge collateral. That's why a lot of people don't like it. They understand intuitively the result of that kind of authoritarian thinking, that ultimately the way to be maximally sure there are no bots is to have no players. That's why when sync got in charge with that mindset he started kicking heaps of players and guilds till it fell apart and it's why the blacklist had a similar problem. You just need to accept the fact I said at the start of this post If you want to solve the problem imo. Accepting reality doesn't mean you're weak on bots, it means you're trying to not think yourself into a degenerate worldview.

  3. Edited 7 weeks ago by Rainy

    The conversation is getting a little abstract. Also blanket bans are not on the table; fair to criticize, but they are somewhat irrelevant at this juncture. Let's refocus to two recent "incidents":

    1. The video of Math
    2. The Maveick admission

    Do either of these raise a sufficient level of concern for you guys? Would you personally avoid playing with these people? Not have them on certain roles? Do nothing? Do something else?

    @Nick - Even if I were to concede you aren't "weak on bots," do you think your response in the Math discussion was helpful? You basically just attacked Alex for being in SHOP and his behavior. Whether intentional or not, it functioned as an ad hominem appeal that distracted from and impliedly dismissed the video evidence.

    There's clearly a wide spectrum of reactions. I get you being against blacklists and blanket bans does not make you pro-botter, but I really don't think your response was indicative of someone who cared about getting to the truth or the potential of botting.

    This has unfortunately been a pattern with you. You often take this irreverent, mocking tone (usually directed at the accusers), and then act offended when people say you aren't serious about the botting issue.

    So, if it isn't too much trouble, I would like to get your views on the video itself.

  4. Godly

    Feb 1 Administrator

    @Nick

    Let me try once again to say it, if we would go your way. There wouldn't be any recording of Zynkh or anyone else. That's what is going to happen with your idea. No1 would report any bot activity at all and how I know that? Because it's the reality what has been going on for years.

  5. Edited 7 weeks ago by Nick

    @Godly @Nick

    Let me try once again to say it, if we would go your way. There wouldn't be any recording of Zynkh or anyone else. That's what is going to happen with your idea. No1 would report any bot activity at all and how I know that? Because it's the reality what has been going on for years.

    That's
    just
    not
    true
    edit:
    there's also many more examples (such as this , collated screenshots from matches and many more that I'm sure I'm not remembering). Calling out bots and providing evidence has been around since before the blacklist, before the [Ns] ally and it will continue happening for as long as people bot.

    There's a lot more people calling out bots than providing evidence but so what, people get to hear ideas, see evidence provided and make up their own minds and make their own decisions. That's what's so great about the so called "free market of ideas". That's how it's been for many, many years and it's worked out pretty good overall among the GvG community with very few exceptions, despite all of the complaining done on this forum which doesn't at all correlate with the huge majority of GvGers opinions on these topics. The idea that nothing worthwhile is being done unless there's some governing body regulating the community is just untrue and at odds with the reality of the games history.

  6. Godly

    Feb 1 Administrator

    @Nick

    The question is, would you even report and investigate those people yourself, if there weren't any strong opinion against botting. That's what I have been saying all along and better question is, if the person is friends with you, would you even consider him/her to be a bot. This applies to lots of people, sure they would investigate "unknowns", but known top players aren't even taking in to consideration and this what @hi im alex in example complains about the circlejerk of top players.

    My first and biggest complain is this(above), I know English isn't my first language, but I still think most (legit) top players are willing to close their eyes on their friends.

    I hope I made my point clear now.

  7. Edited 7 weeks ago by Nick

    @Godly @Nick

    The question is, would you even report and investigate those people yourself, if there weren't any strong opinion against botting. That's what I have been saying all along and better question is, if the person is friends with you, would you even consider him/her to be a bot. This applies to lots of people, sure they would investigate "unknowns", but known top players aren't even taking in to consideration and this what @hi im alex in example complains about the circlejerk of top players.

    My first and biggest complain is this(above), I know English isn't my first language, but I still think most (legit) top players are willing to close their eyes on their friends.

    I hope I made my point clear now.

    Except I did lots of investigation with Zynkh as I've said, although you don't seem to believe me. Also I've done lots of investigation (observing) into Math because it's been brought up a number of times before. The players with the most incentive to investigate are your own team mates, but they're also the ones you're the most biased against calling a bot as you've pointed out. This is why I have the most incentive to obs them when there's questions about them, because I understand there's likely some pro team-mate bias that goes into my view about them as with negative bias of their detractors views about them.

    Is it a coincidence that the majority of people who attack Zynkh are people who already didn't like him before he botted, or that the people who defended him are the ones who played with him the most? My opinion about Math was the same when I played with him and when I played against him. The same for Zynkh. The same for Sebbe. The same for Moo. Part of this is because I try pretty hard to judge on consistent criteria that wont create collateral but will probably miss some people who try to hide their bots. But like with anybody it doesn't make me immune to bias. Having said that I'm pretty sure I put more effort (or at least did put more effort into it when these concerns were more prevalent) into checking my team mates for suspicious stuff than anyone else I can name, including people from other teams.

    So the idea that I don't care if my team mates bot, to me, is just ridiculous considering the amount of energy I would put into observing games and talking about / thinking through these things, and it looks like its an opinion that you hold that can't be disproved by evidence (based on what was said earlier). Part of the whole reason people attack me is for making huge posts like this that try to have a lot of nuance but gives off a tone of making excuses for botters if that's already your opinion of me. That's why, in my view, a lot of people who don't like me will attack strawmen of what I say (like you did before) but never actually be able to use any quotes from me when doing it. Because they often attack the tone rather than the content.

    tl;dr "I still think most (legit) top players are willing to close their eyes on their friends" is just a statement that people are biased. But people are also biased to different degrees, and biased against people they don't like as well as for people they do like, so applied generally it's not a very useful statement. In the end you still have to take claims on their basis independent of who presents them and whatever biases they might have.
    Yes I know people don't read/like these kinds of long posts. Deal with it nerds.

  8. lel.
    Essays on essays. Y'all getting A's for your made up homework.

  9. Godly

    Feb 1 Administrator

    @Nick

    I judge people what they do and what I personally witness myself. In example I do care what certain people might think about person X, however that doesn't really affect on my own opinion about the case or people. The tone what you're talking about is right, but in my opinion people who I address that way really deserve it. As for the content part, I address the points that relevant for the discussion and if not, I see no reason to reply for it.

    Anyways our conversation is essentially off-topic and I'm happy to continue elsewhere, but not in this thread.

  10. Edited 7 weeks ago by Ra

    @Nick The reality is if there's people botting but hide it so well that you can never tell whether they're really bottibg or not just by watching their play then there's not much you can do about it other than scale your response to the evidence (like if if it's very low chance do nothing, medium to high chance then don't let them on that role, very high chance then don't play with them or something like this). You can still have a community that is very against botting (like most of the current one) and still accept that reality above.

    Believing what Maverick said I doubt there's much community left that's very against botting. For me personally it is becoming harder to not play with people I don't trust, because there are so few people left and so many I can't trust. Which seems valid if I read Mav's confession. So I have to admit I've become milder with my opinion, but by no mean I do support botting. I find it pretty sick that people are attacking other botters, while they know they are playing with bots themselves or hiding the secret of friends who are botting.

    The [SHOP] people make it really easy for themselves to become scapegoats everytime they are about to blame someone, simply on personal attacks, yet they probably know the most of bots in here. It would help if they would explain better (they may do it in PM to me aswell) on how to spot botters or about the mathias botting thread since I didn't understand half of what they wrote about the bots and failing.

    This just shows once again that if you come with no 100%-in-your-face prove that someone is cheating. Very few will believe you because there are people who will honestly not believe you, people who don't want to believe that their friends are botting, there will be people who wanna defend their friends and there will be people who will just troll you.

    But let's not exagerrate how many botters are playing atm. It isn't like the time when Godly was active and everyone wanted to pb like him. I personally thought that the last 2 months were relativly clean months of GvG. So I hope we can keep GvG clean of botting, even of the little sneaky bastards who might turn theirs on 3 times a match and I hope SHOP would explain me some more about their bots and why math is so retarded.

  11. Edited 7 weeks ago by hi im alex

    @Ra ; Believing what Maverick said I doubt there's much community left that's very against botting. For me personally it is becoming harder to not play with people I don't trust, because there are so few people left and so many I can't trust. Which seems valid if I read Mav's confession. So I have to admit I've become milder with my opinion, but by no mean I do support botting. I find it pretty sick that people are attacking other botters, while they know they are playing with bots themselves or hiding the secret of friends who are botting.

    The [SHOP] people make it really easy for themselves to become scapegoats everytime they are about to blame someone, simply on personal attacks, yet they probably know the most of bots in here. It would help if they would explain better (they may do it in PM to me aswell) on how to spot botters or about the mathias botting thread since I didn't understand half of what they wrote about the bots and failing.

    This just shows once again that if you come with no 100%-in-your-face prove that someone is cheating. Very few will believe you because there are people who will honestly not believe you, people who don't want to believe that their friends are botting, there will be people who wanna defend their friends and there will be people who will just troll you.

    But let's not exagerrate how many botters are playing atm. It isn't like the time when Godly was active and everyone wanted to pb like him. I personally thought that the last 2 months were relativly clean months of GvG. So I hope we can keep GvG clean of botting, even of the little sneaky bastards who might turn theirs on 3 times a match and I hope SHOP would explain me some more about their bots and why math is so retarded.

    Pretty much the circlejerk ive been talking about.

    Bots are pretty easy, well the shitty ones you guys have lol

    Basically a bot talks with the server faster than you can. For instance enemy monk casts HB; monk client sends signal to server "cast HB" ---> server sends signal to your exe; bot sees it before you can (since its usual rate is check every ~5ms if something is getting casted, depending on your script.) Now if you consider in ping and all that you can actually rupt 1/4 skills. Sadly your shitt bots cant do that since 99% of those are written in AutoIt which is outdated (not to mention the gwca/gwa2 source most use)

    Now to spot it bot is pretty easy if offtarget is enabable. What the bot basically does is, create a list of assays, run through that list (that you can preset in interrupts evolved btw. like skills "healingburst", "Word of healing) and as soon as that fucker pops up skill gets rupted. Now if offtarget is on you will do 180s and rupt target behind your back (which is impossible for a human, nor switching 3 targets that fast or focusing even).

    But thats the obvious shit.

    Now every bot has a failrate variable that you can set. If you want to be sneaky, leave it at 30-40%, so your guaranteed rupts WILL FAIL ON PURPOSE! Only to decieve of course...

    Now i guess most of the idiots here run the oldest version of interrupts evolved, where self defense (the calling of diversion via sound, bullsbot, autostance and auto weaponset-switch) is in the bot. That can lead to some mistakes alone since the script has to prioritize. If its coded badly (which most are) youll fuck up and will chain rupts. For instance youre about to eat a bulls, cancel your movement, and in the same damn time a healing burst is casted. You wont hit that shit and miss since your script has "priority 1 dodging bulls, but priority 2 is rupting. So rupt gets delayed via script and then misses".

    Now what Math did (i hope not that hes really that dumb, because that shit will destroy your RAM and HDD) is double inject or inject a broken exe. Its pretty much the same as i wrote it in b4. But worse!
    Like script 1 wants to pblock rc, script 2 wants to pdrain the guardian on the healmonk. Now both script run at the same time and stuck themselves. That means to make sure atleast one of your skills hits the bot cancels the other one (there were like 2-3 scenes like that esp.) Thats why you end up with faking skills mutltiple times (also if your bot is really bad and has no priority in skill arrangement).

    How to spot a bot is pretty easy based on that. You can enter a delay of rupting to make it less obvious (aka make the bot have a ping, which it usually does not have") But you will still rupt skills at 3/4 of a fast cast. (mostly RC, HB since they have special animations)

    Tl;dr: there is no fucking too long didnt read you fuckwit, read that shit.

  12. yall are some fucking weirdos man

    also i want to clarify original QC never botted i saw this shit in here somewhere luv u a hater

  13. No one fucking cares this game is dead move on you garbage cans

  14. Deleted 7 weeks ago by Jroc
  15. @Exile ; No one fucking cares this game is dead move on you garbage cans

    u r still lurking on here smh pls try to get a life

  16. @hi im alex Now every bot has a failrate variable that you can set. If you want to be sneaky, leave it at 30-40%, so your guaranteed rupts WILL FAIL ON PURPOSE! Only to decieve of course...

    If it fails will you cast your interrupt too late on the skills your bot was supposed to rupt or will it trigger on any skill, like patient spirit and fail to interrupt it or will it do both?

    @hi im alex But you will still rupt skills at 3/4 of a fast cast.

    Do you mean even with the set delay the bot would interrupt 3/4 second skills even if they fast cast?

  17. Edited 7 weeks ago by JornF

    i mentioned the middle ground before, seems no one wants to bother with it. They would rather go back and forth about people botting and not botting. I hate use zynkh as an example again but he is the perfect example of having that middle ground. Yes he botted before, yes hes back in the gvg community somewhat. In gfg last month what did he play? Ele.. did he play mesmer or ranger at all? No .. .. He was put on non rupt roles for that very reason because he did bot in the past. That was a guild decision (including zynkh) as a whole to have him on such roles instead. There werent any issues.
    Thats the middle ground im talking about. To be honest thats as far as people should go about caring about botters/people you know or play with that have botted. Making a new alliance because someone was in the ally that have botted before was just kind senseless imo. Just deal with it and role on.

  18. Edited 7 weeks ago by JornF

    @hi im alex I dont know who you are but a player in a guild or was in a guild that botted really hard, multiple ppl using them. Maybe even you used them but the reason why i said the things i said was because it seems like youre trying to get back into the good graces of the community. Why i said you have no credibility is because of that very reason... you played with multiple ppl who bot and talked your shit during matches like your the best and no one bots etc..
    Now you come out with information about how they work?! I mean come on man u cant play both sides and expect someone to be cool about it :/ .

  19. @JornF i'm not getting involved in this discussion over bots, but alex played in old afk and then in newage afk for a while before drama with emi :P theres a few more videos on this channel, but this one is my personal favourite (basically a good flagging lesson) -

  20. Quick question:

    Is Zynkh still blacklisted?

  21. Godly

    Feb 1 Administrator
    Edited 7 weeks ago by Godly

    @Motoko

    There's no blacklist really, it's up for people themselves who they choose to play with. If you're planning on taking Zynkh to your team or guest him, no1 is going to stop you.

    @JornF

    I get what you mean with your middle ground, but how can you be sure if he doesn't use anything else? I mean he got caught using rupt bot twice and he kept denying it always. Can you really trust him is the question. I'm not saying he's using other bots, but possibility is there always.

    Which brings to my next question, how many times are people really planning to forgive people on botting. Once, Twice or Trice??? I mean if that the case anyone could really bot, because getting caught wouldn't mean anything. You can come back after X months as war or ele right?

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