How to perform optimally as monk?

  1. 6 weeks ago
    Edited 6 weeks ago by Lagoya

    Basically what would playing flawlessly look like as fuse, prot and flagger (within human limits ofc)?

    A few questions to give ideas of what I mean:

    • What should a fuse monk watch in priority? The fronts like the prot, or focus more on the mesmer, or redbar/cleaning his team?
    • How to play against mesmers? Different playstyle vs PB and vs Esurge? Camping lowset as long as possible?
    • How much cancel casting is good? Should a monk cancel cast when under a lot of pressure (on highset for example)?
    • What's the role of a fuse (respectively prot) when it comes to movement around the map?
    • What would be optimal positioning? Out of mesmer's range, as far as possible from the fronts, somewhere in the middle to reach everyone?
    • When/for how long are 2 monks without flagger expected to survive? Against 3dmg/4dmg?
    • What weapon sets for fuse and prot? 2 defsets, 2 highsets, none?
    • Different playstyle against pressure and spike? Remove shame/divs from the other monk? Usage of veil on prot?

    Anyway you get the point. I've already got some answers from guildies and what not, but I'd like some more opinions

  2. Clean front and don't let anyone die, in that order.

  3. This thread flopped really hard, let me bump it for you:

    Bump.

  4. 5 weeks ago

    Since nobody did provide an answer, i will tell you why.
    You cant just give a precise answer to a question asked this unprecise. Monking is decisisonmaking 24/7.
    General stuff like " don't overheal" and "watch your positioning" are general game knowledge and to be applied everywhere. Optimal monking is always a matter of your current game state, playstyle and experience. So rather ask more specific "what if" Question and provide more intel on certain situations.

  5. Thank you for upping Lagoya's thread, bronas64, as I forgot to do so for some days.

    To a certain extent, I agree with your reply. At the same time, I think it is, to some degree, a lazy answer - there are some objective comments that can be done, for instance with regard to weapon sets, and partially to different playstyles in relation to the opponent team's bars.

  6. provide more intel

    @SISTRENS partially to different playstyles in relation to the opponent team's bars.

    ....
    I'm not going to go through every single bar variety in enemy team comps, takes too much effort.

  7. @Lagoya - What weapon sets for fuse and prot?

    @bronas64 provide more intel

    I think, for instance, that this question is already well-put and does not need any context. I highly doubt people change their entire weapon sets compositon according to the team they are facing; rather, they are likely to do minor adjustments such as switching shields and so.

    I also agree with your latent claim that you have the right to do what you want with your time. :)

  8. I think there is a shieldset / prot setup guide somewhere, made by holye. Did some texting there. And i don't mind going into detail, but rather on ts in a more dialogish way.

  9. Godly

    Feb 13 Administrator

    http://teamquitter.com/index.php/conversations/backline-guides

  10. Edited 5 weeks ago by Ali

    - What should a fuse monk watch in priority? The fronts like the prot, or focus more on the mesmer, or redbar/cleaning his team? You should try watch their front as much as you can so u can preempt where their dmg is coming from. You should keep your front as clean as you can, as fast as you can. If possible watch the mes, however from my experience this is hard to do when watching 2 front as prot, might be easier as heal because you don't have to necessarily catch spikes all the time before they come in. You should also be using guardian more than the prot.

    - How to play against mesmers? Different playstyle vs PB and vs Esurge? Camping lowset as long as possible?
    You just need to be careful you don't fake too much to the point where it's ineffective, you don't wanna be burning energy faking for no reason. If they are PB I personally fake more than if they are Esurge. Also try not to endanger your teammates when you are faking, sometimes you simply just need to cast to keep something alive. Against esurge its best to stay in shield for as long as possible.

    - How much cancel casting is good? Should a monk cancel cast when under a lot of pressure (on highset for example)? See above. It's just common sense, don't do it to the point that it feels ineffective (you get the feels over time I guess) Take your energy into account, if you're low you probably will fake less naturally. I think faking out mesmers also involves a bit of luck too.

    - What's the role of a fuse (respectively prot) when it comes to movement around the map? Heal should push, and prot defend. If they send two damage (or are running on 1 dmg and send 1 dmg back to counter your team's push) as heal you should be pushing to support. Prot will push if they send 1 more dmg (so that's 3 dmg). Generally it might not work out like this, it's situational, but in an ideal world ye.

    - What would be optimal positioning? Out of mesmer's range, as far as possible from the fronts, somewhere in the middle to reach everyone? Try to stand away from the other 2 monks in your team (very important) nothing worse than enemy frontline bouncing between your backline like a pinball. Try to stay as far away from their frontline as possible but still in range of them ofc, cos that's where most the dmg will come from (apart from ls eles and shit). Make sure you keep your eyes peeled for collapses on your push team like mentioned above or any of your team that may be over extended.

    - When/for how long are 2 monks without flagger expected to survive? Against 3dmg/4dmg?
    Entirely situational. 2 dmg and a mes, if the mes is on fire or if there are nice kds/shutdown, can kill 2 monks in certain situations. It doesn't even have to be that composition tbh but if you're unlucky or fuck up then 3 dmg can kill 2 monks but that shouldn't really happen unless DP etc.

    - What weapon sets for fuse and prot? 2 defsets, 2 highsets, none?

    http://teamquitter.com/index.php/conversations/backline-guides It's preference.

    - Different playstyle against pressure and spike? Remove shame/divs from the other monk? Usage of veil on prot? It's nice to clean the prot sometimes, but this can be risky actually. You could be late at catching a spike because of this. Be ready to use infuse. If your prot has shame and flagger is, idk fapping, u could be the only guy able to prevent the spike. Sometimes you just have to infuse aways cos it's safer to do so. Nothing worse than HB timing out when you could have caught it with infuse right!? :D Vs Pressure: http://teamquitter.com/index.php/1225-how-to-balanced/12#p12533

    As you play more you will just get used to these things and they start to come naturally once you start to get in the flow of it. Ofc you can be the best monk in the world if your team has bad positioning you will just die anyways.

    Edit: I've probably missed loads, and don't play heal! If anyone disagrees with anything I've said then i'll stand corrected :D Will edit if I think of more shit

  11. Edited 5 weeks ago by Stark

    You should also be using guardian more than the prot.

    A comment from my experience:
    Good coordination of guardians is key vs. pressure builds because it will reduce the need to heal and takes pressure off your prot.
    Calling guardians on ts might be an option in certain situations, but it's best if you tell your prot beforehand that you will guardian against a certain character, e.g. the axe war or derv.
    This will allow the prot to be efficient with his guardians / shielding hands / stab aura which again will take pressure off you.

  12. Edited 5 weeks ago by Stark

    Basically what would playing flawlessly look like as fuse, prot and flagger (within human limits ofc)?

    That certainly is a question too big to answer on a forum :)
    Some influences are:
    Individual skill: Get fast and efficient with your keyboard / mouse actions, learn to dodge, fake at 0.5s, learn skill animations, learn skill CDs (-> efficient faking).
    Teamwork: Clarify and learn what you can expect from your mates and what needs to be done by you.
    Game knowledge: 1. Understand situations 2. Predict enemy actions 3. Apply target-aimed counter-measures
    Communication: ...

    Key to good monking is practice and continous improvement as it is with everything....
    Sadly you can't grind ladder anymore, so the learning curve is not as steep as it should be for a PvP game. :(

  13. Deleted 5 weeks ago by Stark
  14. holye

    Feb 13 Moderator

    1. What should a fuse monk watch in priority? The fronts like the prot, or focus more on the mesmer, or redbar/cleaning his team?

    What I understand as the essence of your question is that the the field is partitioned into different "areas", like frontline, mesmer, cleaning, etc., and you would like to know how the fuse interacts/prioritizes these areas.

    I will break it down as I see fit.

    Damage

    What is damage? To understand damage, let us start with health.

    What is health? Health is a numeric value given to your character that determines its life.

    Heals give a positive numeric health value to your character, capped at its max health.

    Damage is a negative numeric health value that detracts from your character's health. Damage can be generally split into armor considering and non-armor considering.

    Prots are spells/skills that reduce damage.

    Current versus Incidental Damage

    Current damage is the focused damage output of the enemy at the given moment. Heals/prots should go where the current enemy damage is directed.

    Incidental damage is the damage output of the enemy not doled out at the given moment (e.g. degen) or current damage done to a target that is not the main focus of enemy damage (e.g. AoE damage). Incidental damage should mostly be cleaned by party healing.

    Using heals/prots on non-current enemy damage is called redbarring.

    The main duty of the prot and fuse is to follow and heal/prot current damage and avoid redbarring. The flagger bar traditionally carries the party healing, though the HB/SG fuse meta is allowing the fuse to partially fill that role as well.

    Cleaning

    Draw Conditions -

    1. Draw DW on prot
    2. Draw blind, cripple, weakness on frontline (dervishes can clean themselves to a certain extent)
    3. Draw DW on overextended targets so prot can RC fuse instead of pushing up

    Cure Hex -

    1. Cure Hex on hexes that lineback ally offensive character (e.g. blurred vision, snares, lsurge, diversion)

    How to play against mesmers? Different playstyle vs PB and vs Esurge? Camping lowset as long as possible?
    How much cancel casting is good? Should a monk cancel cast when under a lot of pressure (on highset for example)?

    1. Burn shames/diversions ASAP if enemy has a kill threat

    • Burn shames in lowset with 5 e spells
    • Burn diversions with lowest priority skills

    Skill priority can be situational but I would rank the below order as skill priority from low to high v traditional 2 fline builds.
    DE, SG, Infuse, Cure, Draw, Guardian, PS, HB

    What's the role of a fuse (respectively prot) when it comes to movement around the map?

    In 8v8 situations with minimal movement aside from flags, the fuse must be able to follow and heal/prot 4-5 offensive characters.

    When the map is split up (i.e. skirmish/split), a fuse will be the farthest up monk. The fuse will follow the 2nd enemy offensive character that is either at stand or collapsing defensively.

    This follow will change only when running a dedicated split (2+ split characters). At this point, the flagger will follow the second collapsing damage, the prot will follow the 3rd damage, and the fuse will follow 2 damage. This may confuse some, so I can explain it in detail if needed.

    What would be optimal positioning? Out of mesmer's range, as far as possible from the fronts, somewhere in the middle to reach everyone?

    A fuse should always position in range to save their frontline if they are collapsed/spiked. If enemy characters can cast defensively on your frontline (e.g. blind, weakness, blurred vision, glimmering mark, snares), then the fuse should be in range of the frontline to clean.

    When/for how long are 2 monks without flagger expected to survive? Against 3dmg/4dmg?

    V 3 damage - monks should theoretically hold forever
    V 4 damage- team has low chance of dying
    - the enemy has a chance to kill, but more times then not, its due to ally defensive mistakes

    What weapon sets for fuse and prot? 2 defsets, 2 highsets, none?

    I use 25e (low shield), 30e (normal shield), 40e (staff), 42e (40/40) with high set/death set inventory swaps.

    Different playstyle against pressure and spike? Remove shame/divs from the other monk? Usage of veil on prot?

    The main generalizable difference between pressure and spike is the following:

    • Pressure's average damage is high while its best damage in a single second is low
    • Spike's average damage is low while its best damage in a single second is high

    Defensive best practices will stay constant against both styles. Getting used to the difference in damage tempo/energy/skill use is the real challenge and requires match-up practice.

  15. Get a bot

  16. Edited 5 weeks ago by Rainy
    1. Play with good teammates/backline.
    2. Watch party bars (red bar), never field.
    3. Cast guardian as little as possible.
    4. Follow damage/don't make conspicuous throws.
    5. Clean front.
    6. (optional) Demonstrate knowledge of flag tactics/skirmish play.

    Note: #4 is most important. You can have the worst micro in the world, but if you play conservatively and are on the right spot on the map, teammates will completely overlook (or, in many cases, fail to notice) poor execution, provided you are winning and/or meeting guild expectations of winning.

    This simple strategy has earned some players multiple gold capes :).

    In all seriousness, I mostly jest about the poor micro and am exaggerating to make a point, but I do think it's accurate that people will remember the tactical side of the game much more than the efficiency of your skill usage.

    Your objectives as a player are also partly determined by the talent-level/composition of your team. Take Awowa, for instance, who very rarely used and sometimes never even brought guardian. Since [rawr]'s builds often neutralized 8 v 8 pressure builds, he had the luxury of focusing on catching spikes and cleaning frontline. Dealing pressure was a relative (to other top monks) weakness of his game - and even moreso a weakness of three pound's game - but it wasn't a skill they really needed. Somewhat similarly, someone in Ali's position is going to have the luxury of being able to focus more on cancel-casting than other monks due to a routine advantage in damage/tactical/build advantage (note: not saying Ali isn't amazing at everything else, he is :)).

    Or even take the flag position for a guild like OvO (and its many iterations). From a micro perspective, the vast majority of monks could satisfy that role and the team would win at a comparable rate. A significant portion could probably micro better. But they have enough carriers at other positions (e.g. Ali on Prot) and a constant advantage in team damage, build selection, and tactics that there are heavy diminishing returns when it comes to player micro at that role. Basically, what they needed out of that role was someone who could follow damage, communicate with the team, and play consistently and conservatively enough to avoid throws. This has been the case for other guilds over the years.

    In a lot of contexts, all of the nuances we talk about - guardian usage, cancel casting, weapon swapping, energy management, skill usage/efficiency - functionally take a back seat. It doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to do those things; only that your perceived worth as a player won't be as bound to them as we might like to pretend.

  17. Step 1 don't listen to 0 gold clowns like that guy^
    Step 2 clean front
    Step 3 keep team alive

  18. Get texmod so you can do everything ppl mentioned in this thread better than they can.

  19. @Rainy You can have the worst micro in the world, but if you play conservatively and are on the right spot on the map, teammates will completely overlook (or, in many cases, fail to notice) poor execution, provided you are winning and/or meeting guild expectations of winning.

    I agree with this, some of the worst micro players in the game have won multiple gold capes. At the same time some of the worst macro players in the world have won multiple gold capes. There are many ways to play the game, and I think the most important thing to being successful is to find a team who all enjoy and excel at playing the game a certain way.

  20. @JoAlmighty some of the worst micro players in the game have won multiple gold capes. At the same time some of the worst macro players in the world have won multiple gold capes

    name names or gtfo

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