Last active 2 days ago
I think I found a new boon prot build. I know that sounds presumptuous of me to say, but I'll get to this later. I think it's better than the one usually used.
The build is:
(1) Shielding Hands, (2) Dismiss Condition, (3) Reversal of Fortune, (4) Deny Hexes, (5) Offering of Blood, (6) Divine Boon, (7) Blood Renewal, (8) Guardian.
10 Blood Magic, 12 Divine Favor, 12 Protection Prayers.
40 40 Blood, Enchant Staff, Blood High Energy.
The way it is different from the Boon Prot build usually used are these two things:
Notes on Playing:
- Always Switch to 40 40 blood to cast Offering of Blood.
Personally, I find the build decidedly better than the more often-used version. I think blood renewal is superior to Divine Spirit because it's a cheap self heal to counteract the sacrifice of Offering of Blood. And it acts as an excellent cover enchantment for Divine Boon. Not only did a shattered Divine Spirit turn the skill into a complete waste of 10 energy. But strips on your Divine Boon are a major problem in the more commonly used version of Boon prot.
Again, I know it sounds presumptuous for me to say I found something that hasn't been tried before. But consider these things:
I think it's viable for all forms of PvP. The build is definitely better than WoH Hybrid in some situations. I would say the WoH hybrid bar is more versatile overall. The Build has not been tested in 8v8, however, blood necros with strip enchantment are much more common in GvG and this is an issue for the build.
Anyways, I've been using it for about 4 months now. At first I tried it with 8 blood magic and it was noticeably inferior to a WoH hybrid, but was fun when bored. With March's Flux (Hidden Talent, +2 to secondary profession attributes), the build was a lot of fun to play. After that flux was over, I tried it with 10 blood, and it seems roughly equal to a WoH hybrid, I would say WoH Hybrid is not noticeably better except after months of play and the difference is very slight, overall, and of course situational.
Compared to a WoH Hybrid, this Boon Prot build...:
For note, my WoH Hybrid bar is: Woh, Patient, Sig of Rejuv, Cure Hex, Guardian, Spirit Bond (Switchable), Draw, Optional (B-Stance, Veil, Some Other Stance, or Shielding Hands)
@Hamstorm Condition removal?
My quick thoughts about stand rit. Really fun bars to play, similar to rit runner... as long as you are not getting trained out by a derv and ranger. Rits have a bad energy management and you will very quickly become a useless character. Spamming Xinraes alone is very good in RA but won't get you anywhere in a GvG match.
Yeah I use wielder's remedy.
Yeah I totally agree with you about E-management on Xinrae's. That's why I use Renewing Memories, and Energetic Was Lee Sa. It is sustainable (read: spammable) with that. Most peeople when they use Xinraes, go into Channeling. I just go full restoration & spawning power, purely for the energy management. You can also go inspiration.
This is what I was thinking: (1) Xinrae's, (2) Vengeful, (3) Wielder's Remedy, (4) Renewing Memories, (5) Soothing Memories, (6) Protective was Kaoli, (7) Energetic was Lee Sa, (8) Weapon of Warding
@tdrone well the only point would be if you could do more damage with a hybrid healer at stand than a necro would while running flags, I think.
@LittleYoshi The 3. Monk on the other side will be more useful to the mainteam, than your Ranger and Rit together as they provide pretty much nothing to spikes and the bit of pressure applied from it will be easily healed by Shieldguardians and Healing Bursts alone.
Well, yeah 3 monks heal more than 2 monks and a rit. But also the 2nd rit is going to be dropping pots & spirits. So really, the answer is, I don't know. I think you're just speculating, and so am I. We just don't have the data because it is hard to calculate how much healing 1 monk does, as well as hard to calculate how much healing those two rits would do, with respect to time.
But essentially the more appropriate question is not if 1 rit outheals 1 monk, but if 2 rits outheal one monk while one runs flags, as well as if 1 rit at stand out-damages one necro running flags.
@LittleYoshi So the 1. problem already would be if your build has enough damage to even kill 3 Monks in mainteam.
The more precise question is if the rit at stand does more damage with respect to time than the necro who is running flags all game.
@LittleYoshi That was a bit if theorycrafting and people might or might not agree with me on that one, but there is one problem with it that probably stands above all the others and that is Lord Damage.
A standard Necro Balanced is one of the best 28minute builds in the game.
5 Front (2Melees, Mesmer, 2 Monks) / 3 Back (Ranger, Necro, Monk)
Your team would look something like this if the games go to Lord Damage
5 Front (2Melees, Mesmer, Prot, Runner) / 3 Back (Ranger, Rit, Fuse) and you could change it to send your Weapon Rit together with your fuse to the enemy base and instead defend with Prot + Runner, which would lead to the question if Fuse + Weapon Rit can stay alive somehow, while also giving up on killing the enemy in your own base.
I think it would be preferable to send the stand rit to the enemy guild lord, because with the nature of Xinrae's, does well against guild base NPCs. I agree, the healer monk would have the most synergy with the Xinrae's rit, however, it does depend wholly on the situation. Healers should follow damage in correct proportion. But in the situation you described, where 1 ranger & 1 necro would be defending on the opposing team, I agree that sending the Xinrae's & Healing Monk to split, and Flagger & Prot to base would be appropriate. And I think that would work well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the best skills to use on the Guild Lord if you need to keep him alive would be Infuse, RC, Shielding Hands, and Resilient Weapon. You asked if the Infuse & Xinrae's could stay alive against NPCs, and I think Ranger, and Necro. I think they'd have no problem. We also should ask if the Prot & Flagger Rit could stay alive against a mesmer, and 2 frontlines. Yes I think they'd be well equipped to do so as well.
@LittleYoshi Long story short. Playing with a Rit Runner already gives you a pretty big disadvantage at 28 and imo the only way of playing with it is to run something extremely aggressive and trying to kill as fast as possible, instead of packing more defensive stuff into your build as a compensation for the Ritualist.
Well, as I said in the post you're responding to, the disadvantages come when you keep the traditional #8 rit at stand, or send him against a split. The Xinrae's build for comparison is by nature pretty defensive, in that it punishes people for attacking, removes conditions (burning, crippled, etc.) with a 1/4s cast. It would be easy to modify the build to send the Xinrae's to defend against the split, where the Rit flagger is simply built for running flags better so than anything else.
Again, it seems to me that keeping a Xinrae's rit at stand would provide more damage than a necro running flags. I see you question whether it would provide as much heal as three monks. Of course not. Xinrae's does not heal for as much as a monk does. It doesn't heal for as much as smiter's boon did back in the day. If you play Xinrae's extensively for example in Random Arenas (or anywhere extensively) you can get a good grasp of how much healing it does compared to a standard monk, and I would say it is about between 0.75 and 0.8 the amount of healing as a monk. Admittedly that is estimation, however I think I'm in a good spot to make the estimation and I don't think I'm biased. Also since that rit is also taking protective was Kaoli, you will get party heals making up for HB & SG to some extent. The question then is whether a #8 rit dropping pots & spirits does 0.25 or more the amount of healing of one monk, with respect to time, and I think the answer is yes. I would say it's easily more than 0.3, 0.4, or even much more, because you also include weapons and heals when he is at stand, the weapons last for 10 seconds. For the record, I'm imagining a Spirit Channeling runner as that is what I have the most experience with.
@LittleYoshi Playing Weapon Rit and Runner Rit also makes handling splits a lot more difficult just do add a bit more^^
The problem with splitting is you only have 4 dedicated damage. Honestly it seems silly to take 4 healers & 4 damage, but it just seems even sillier to run flags on a damage that does nothing for team the entire game in 80%+ situations, which are the choices given to us by ANet's last updates.
I think it would make splitting defensively easier, as the flagger can drop pots to effect everyone (splitters if they are compass range), and so can the stand rit. The stand rit can defend quite effectively against splits as he is both healing NPCs and damaging the enemies with the same button-presses, making it easy to do. Xinrae's is effective against elementalists because it limits damage to 5% of total HP, also. Effective against rangers because of the 1/4 cast times & condition removals.
So I took like a 2-3 year break and came back ~over a year ago, and everyone had stopped running ritualists, and keeping 3 monks at stand and running flags on damage 80-100% of the time depending on the team.
I want to explain why I think that is stupid, but first I will explain that I fully understand the reasoning and intentions of doing it. I guess I shouldn't say stupid, but sub-optimal. I can see how it's better than keeping a rit at stand and running on a damage. =D Obviously. There are better options though.
I understand that you need 3 healers at main team, because of the ele & derv updates. Believe me, I remember stalemating with 5 damage and 2 monks at stand with each team, and I thought that was much better gameplay than the current balance after the updates.
The point of builds on flaggers ever since ether prodigy heal party runner was to do stuff for your team from a distance. Damage does nothing for your team except while you're at stand (and stopping running to cast).
You could take out a damage for a hybrid healer, and run flags on a regular runner. I would run a Xinrae's weapon rit at stand, and a regular old rit runner as runner. You would get more heals this way and more damage. You would get more damage because the Xinrae's rit will be at stand doing damage for like 4 times as much time as the necro would be. I understand that life siphon & bleeding last a long time at full duration but I don't think they stick for longer than 15 seconds maximum unless you're sitting at stand overloading hex removal for some period of time.
I would love to get more data as precisely as possible to compare these two options, but I don't have it. Following is speculation and you can help me correct the numbers and we can get a realistic comparison. It takes about 1 minute and 5 seconds to run a flag on most maps. This gives about 50 seconds where a Xinrae's rit is doing damage while a necro isn't.
I'm not a master ritualist, so I'm not saying my idea for the stand rit is optimal, and of course in any case there are other options. But what I would run would be: (1) Xinrae's, (2) Vengeful, (3) Wielder's Remedy, (4) Renewing Memories, (5) Soothing Memories, (6) Protective was Kaoli, (7) Energetic was Lee Sa, (8) (I usually take either warding or resilient on this bar but I would try other things with this team structure).
This is pretty heavy on the heal side. You could run other builds at stand, but I think ritualist would be the only option for the hybrid healer at stand. I also think Xinrae's and Vengeful would outdamage over 1 minute against a necro at 20-25 seconds. Again I'd love to get precise data on this and I think that's not hard to calculate (how long exactly does a necro spend at stand, and how long it takes to run a flag -- also have to consider that a rit runner spends much less time stopping to cast in order to have his intended effect).
Again, I think you'd have more healing and more damage with this structure.
Obviously while the runner is there you would put xinrae's and vengeful on frontline down, and warding & resil on backline up.
@Ra Do curse necro's (mesmers) still have a place in the game/meta?
The community is small and there are still tons of builds that have not been tried yet, at least not by the current community. Also you have 90% of the community with severe dislike of running things that don't already get run.
60 armor is an issue (and undertaker's is still 60 upon the first hit, and, that sucks), however necros do have surviveability elsewhere, even on curses. Parasitic bond can give you >100hp every 5 seconds after a 20s delay. With careful positioning it's no problem staying alive until this can start to effect you. Insidious Parasite is good too, but in my opinion not worth taking in GvG because of its energy cost and selfishness of the skill, when you already have faintheartedness. Another problem with curses is energy management. Most people have never run masochism (even before it got nerfed), so I'm not sure if it's even worth mentioning, but it's difficult to use in combination with curses. You could use angorodon's with foul feast and plague sending though. I believe there are stronger options than glyph, but glyph is easy. There's also inspiration but I never had great success with that. Personally, I like masochism. It gives you the most energy if it's not stripped and it's already in the necro skillset. You can cover it cheaply with blood renewal which has good synergy with it and is an excellent cover ench. But then you're looking at a wider attribute spread than pretty much everyone is comfortable with without runes on an already low armor character.
The main problem with running a curses necro in GvG is that you have 3 monks at main team each with a hex removal every 12 seconds. Viable curses skills have a cooldown of 5 to 10 seconds. I'm sure most people already understand this, but the idea of course with running hexes is to overload the enemy monk's abilities to remove them. A single curses necro in GvG is going to be absolutely useless. I will say though that before the shift to keeping 3 monks at stand, it was viable to run a single curses necro at stand and still have 3-4 main hexes stick at stand at a given moment consistently by using masochism in combination with glyph of lesser. That was, however, before SoS necro became meta. Skills that removed a single enchant were not a problem as blood renewal is a nice cover enchant.
Soul Bind is potentially extremely strong in 8v8. It has a very low cooldown. The problem with it is energy management and the other problems mentioned above. Faintheartedness, and defile defenses are excellent skills conditional upon them sticking. Like I mentioned, without any other hexes in the team they will get removed and just be fodder for cure hex. However, the inherent imbalance with hexway was never fixed in the game. Which is that after you overload the enemy team's hex removal, they become much more powerful than they are normally.
I'm sure curses is viable. If I could find people willing to run builds that as far as we know haven't been run before I would try it.
Glyph of renewal mesmer is also able to put something like 1.5-2x more hexes on an enemy team than a single monk can remove. Illusion mesmers are also good. In the right setting curses would be more than just viable it would actually be really good. Curses is unique because of the duration of the hexes is much longer than any other hexes in the game. The longer they last without being removed the more effective they are, and of course they would suck if thrown into any of the current common team builds, because they depend on lasting a long time for them to be worth taking them.
Anonymous: I shouldn't be scapegoated for what other people do in Random Arenas. And I left that group anyways.