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@Godly Again I think this is all arguable. There have been lots of metas in past that doesn't require lots of brain activity to win. Also even now there's builds that are good, but you will get heavily punished if you don't play properly. You could argue some certain skills are better(or classes) derv>war example in some situations or scenarios.
Also I still don't get why only ranger and monks are considered honorable. Monking in general is way harder, however the monk builds raw healing power was also buffed a lot in NF, because the overall dmg was also buffed. If you ask me monking in BL era(pro/fac) was quite skillful. Axe and hammer bars are still same from 2010 I think and for normal dom mes is just forced to take cancel thanks to spam mes.
True although builds weren't incredibly well put together like today where:
Lsurge has it's own utility cover hex -> lstrike - > offers crack armor and penetration 25% of total. + aoe chain lightning. Absurdly low cd's and crazy halve cd's.
Mind burn has low cd adjacent burning spam. Arguably one of the highest damaging skills assuming burning gets to run it's course or prevent regeneration. 10-12 seconds of burning + 30-50 x 2 fire triggers (x 4-6) depending on number of aoe hit. Burning alone can deal 140-160 dmg or prevent 140-160 health regeneration and is maintainable on multiple targets. (assuming you let up eventually to prevent further exhaustion)
Wastrel spam doesn't even need explaining on how retarded that is.
Dervs are incredibly broken and actually work extremely well with almost any profession. Especially warriors for training targets with rendering aura - > + kd from warrior. Amazing split potential, survival, and mobility.
Though you know all this anyways tl;dr that is the point I'm trying to make. Anyways you are entitled to your opinion.
@LittleYoshi I have never played Dota so take this with a grain of salt.
Isnt this whole discussion like asking if Dota or League of Legends is more difficult to play?
Dota = Everything is overpowered and its balanced around one op countering another op
LoL = Everything is kinda balanced to the same level (ofc u could argue with that but you know what i mean)
Old days = Everything was playable and balanced to around the same level with some outliers (double Mindblast/Smiters and whatever)
Today = All the builds are over the top and you have to counter them if theres not a pretty big skill gap between the 2 guilds.
BTW just today [yolo] won the MAT by playing Bala(Nec and Ele?) and Triple Melee.
Im not gonna say that it is as honorable as lets say a balanced back in the day with Rit Runner and 2 Warriors but it is quite honorable for todays standards at least and it shows that it is definitely possible to win with "inferior" builds by just playing well and having a good understanding of the game.
I've never played dota but I used to play a lot of league until it became extremely broken. It was great from 2009-2010 and after it was sold it went to absolute shit. Ironically the problem with that game altogether mostly stemmed from too much damage from bruisers and tanks. And assassins with mobility + utility making plays easier than professions that took skill like most non-mobile champions. But this is a complete different topic. And unfortunately for LoL almost 90% of the champions have lost their identity due to reworks / have become extremely easy to play. Seems to be a trend.....
You're right this monthly I will agree was better than most.
@LittleYoshi Doesnt it make the game already more tactical when both teams have builds that allow them to do a lot of different things?
For example Dervs give you the ability to run into the enemy base and quickly kill both knights. In the same way there is also a certain amount of tactical knowledge required to not let this happen and stop them from doing this.
I guess you could argue that easily abusable mechanics that have very little consequences are technically tactical. Although very little effort is employed in that type of play. And because of the utility with the bar it makes it very easy think zurrie derv or avatar of balth. Both bars are excellent due to cracked armor and to my knowledge both have excellent conditional removement so "cripple" and cover conditions are not something to be worried about. Again going along with bars make it easier for these kind of plays to be made.
I'm not saying the game is completely tactically shit on obviously you're going to have to do things to allow or prevent that from happening but for the other team there is typically now more so than before going to be a forced response and for the player actually engaging in that play it is going to be extremely easy to do because bars are equipped to handle almost every situation.
@Godly Yea obviously it's matter of opinion and personally I would prefer pre-NF era over anything(there's a reason why I took half year break when NF came). Also why would you define ranger or backline only as good? because of the OP builds? People still play "honorable" builds, but it's arguable if it a good idea.
You're also saying because game is so dead, people should play more fun and not so tryhard builds? I'm getting this right? I can just say, been there done that. Even if you and your guild tries to play lets say Honor balance without no super OP things, you just lose(because of the build already). Even against lesser skilled guilds, it's uphill battle from beginning.
Well about armor, it's arguable again. True there's lots of sources of dmg that plain ignores armor and those builds happen to be best. If you played in era before Rawr (became the best) there wasn't armor around at all and everything was actually paper. Nowadays people use lots of q7 shields etc and best armor insignia, so it would be pretty stupid to not run armor ignoring skills.
Also about current builds and current game mechanics, we all know that those won't be changing. Which leads to this-> I understand your point, however trying to get people to play something else for w/e is pretty much impossible. There could be numerous reasons for this and some people might actually enjoy this era.
My point being I don't see how players in this era are considered highly tactical, or good when builds allow them to do mostly everything. With very little draw backs even in the instances where they play bad. Very little consequences again unless you are a monk. And ranger position hasn't changed insanely to the point where they lost their identity or to the point where they do absurd damage with their forms of utility. It is probably the most honorable thing next to a monk in this game. And if you can either play ranger or monk in todays meta then yes I believe you're good because those are the probably 2 hardest positions left now.
@Godly I agree, but if your rupt chars are any good you can still manage and if they have multiple aoe sources you're just stupid trying to even mass block(hi Piken).
Damage has to follow damage, mostly not because of flagger can't handle it, but because your main will most likely wipe in 4 dmg vs 2 heals situation. Trading 1 dmg for 1 heal is always good. It should have been impossible to leave 1 heal versus 2 dmg in past too. The real difference if you ask me is, people don't play midline defence anymore and most offensive players don't know when to play def. That's bigger reason why monks can't handle nowadays, because of zero support from others.
I agree, some split bars ridiculous strong for splitting than compared past split builds. It's not even the absurd dmg or low cd, you could get those in past too. However their strong survivability is what makes them OP as hell. In past imo you couldn't get all 3 in same bar(dmg, low rec and survivability) and now you can.
You can't run on flagger because you just die(usually), if they can keep even 4 dmg at stand. Sure party heals from monk have nerfed to ground(really long time ago already), but Rit is still there. However the Rit itself is quite weak against loads of stuff nowadays so it isn't that preferable to play even. Anyhow it's not because of party heals or dmg, there's other reasons why to not play the only char with good party heals.
And I would say if the fluxes would have existed in beginning all the great ones would have abused the fuck out of those. Simple because, if you want to be the best you will turn all the stones over. If you ever read the old IQ forums or even old QQ forums, you would know that every game mechanic was up for discussion(and how to abuse most of it).
I agree with what you're saying here but I disagree there needs to be more tactics in todays meta. When I envision tactics people used it was a selection based on what was going on in a match. They were "the toolbox" and tools people used to better their opponents. These dynamic play styles typically weren't for the most point forced "reactions" depending on what your enemy was doing. You could decide which was the better outcome instead of relying on forced movements. (not always but more so today then than.) And I'm not saying mechanics shouldn't be abused obviously if it's in the game people are welcome to use whatever necessary but again it just makes it easier for people.
VoD is an alright example. Difference in that era was while VoD was abusable you had to make it to VoD in order to use specific builds meant for that situation. I.E sineptitude. or aoe. And it's true they opted for much defense. Although even with those benefits many not so great teams could still not pull it off. Fluxes are available from the start of the game till the end. And the raw damage in combination with a flux is much more problematic for backline, npcs, and for dmg light chaos, lightning that bypasses most armor or any damage in combination with cracked armor. Although not every flux caters to these builds these builds are great in almost any flux lol.
I just don't see how players could even be considered better in this era compared to others when they are given so much emanage, low cool downs, utility, damage, and when armor is basically paper for every class. (burning, lightning dmg, chaos, holy, dark, and degeneration) in general make it a joke. Where builds are almost all the same, there is less than 8 guilds with 3-4 of them being "good". It's a matter of opinion I guess. In my opinion the only honorable classes which people would be "defined" as good are backline or ranger.
Well dmg did got buffed a lot, but that was already the case with NF(but so did healing). Last big updates to buff dervish and ele dmg, a lot(in 2012 already). If you look at memorial entries the game have still evolved build wise quite lot, although last 1-2 years have been kinda same. It's arguable if it easier now or not, in my opinion people have gotten better with overall tactics. People don't make silly mistakes with flag or end game tactics, at least the game throwing ones. At least in 07 you could still face top50 guild, with close to zero knowledge with flag or VoD tactics.
I fully can understand the argument of having less players, but when it comes to builds and tactics, I really don't see how different it's compared to past. There have always been bad metas(OP skills etc), thanks to awful skill balance. Now it just sticks out more(what is broken), because no more skill changes, thus things will be figured out eventually. Thus people will abuse what's most broken as they did in past too, however because things are more known to everyone, even the worst guilds know what's most broken. You really can't say that best guilds didn't abuse game mechanics in past, because that was one of the reasons what made them to be best.
First, tactics have diminished such as blocking cant even be used successfully anymore due to quick recharging armor ignoring aoe. Damage HAS to follow damage because flaggers are weak even more so. Its almost impossible to leave healer anymore at stand against 2 dmg. splitters can spam skills on multiple npc targets or switch to another one once its protted successfully due to low cd and absurd damage. your team must run flags on midline or frontline typically because party heals are garbage now. tactcs became less optional and became more enforced to survive. Thanks to retarded dmg output and ease of builds.
I never said guilds didnt abuse builds but I will for sure tell you guilds never abused skills in combination with fluxes. Or redundant skills where recharge and energy is hardly anything.
@Godly So you're basically saying game is easier now for certain classes? Unless you're playing BL.
I dont see how you could argue against that.
@Godly Also I still don't get why people compare past to present. By this logic being top20 in 2010 was better being top now? In 08 being top100 was good enough? What about 05-07, how much is needed?
There was more players and obviously it means more competition, however it doesn't mean individuals were better than now.
??? every class almost now has armor ignoring low cd emanagable bars, quick target swtches with utility??? wtf are you talking about?? the epitome of easy unless you're backline
@JornF Bits of information transferred through the network?! is that the packet hes talking about? lol
"Packets of information in the network."
@Nick If you think I anybody but you actually cares enough to make up guild history from 10 years ago then you're even more pathetic than I thought
What are you going to do, track down my old guild mates who haven't logged in the game in 10 fucking years to ask them if I played in a guild with them in 2007??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
I don't think anybody is buying ur history man thats some sketchy shit u flip on ur shit pretty quick lawl.
Nick: rank 200-500 in 2k11
Nick: tool box . bots
Nick: Plays ele and spams armor ignoring damage that has been ridiculously abused.
I'm done with you trash. There is no cure for aids once you have it. byebye think twice before shit talking ppl when ur a cheater . 200-500 in 2k11 >_> lol pretty damn sad if u ask me